Very simple - stop abusing referees and up the pay.
Every Club has players sign off that they won't do it. I play in 35s and listen to players carry on and suggest their should be leeway because they're older - absolute rubbish. Strong use of a yellow card.... red if it continues and if any threats are made call the police and ban them for good. If anything actually does happen make sure they are charged by the police.
I told players on the weekend to pull their heads in over just this sort of thing - they did.
Stan and The Captain will never achieve Oko status.
With tough laws in place, if it happens during the game, the abuser will be looked at by all fellow suporters and be saying: "thanks, you've just cost us $200.00"
Supporters will learn very quickly not to hurl abuse at the Ref.
How does the ref handle it if he cops an earful? They're either mentally tough, or they have good support from parents/friends to keep going next week or they quit.
I'm sure the Refs are taught that they will always cop a bit of abuse and it's not as if they didn't already know that they'll cop abuse before they signed up to become a ref.
We all know that refs cop abuse right up to the elite level in all codes of football. But, it's not necessary at grass roots.
If all players, parents, coaches, managers and supporters from Under 6 to over 45 are told of the TOUGH laws against abuse towards refs I suggested above, it will go a long way to elimanitng abuse and it will retain Referees.
refsdad, with absolutely no disrespect, please dont drag that old line out. I do my bit mate where and when I can......i am in sydney half the year and actually do other things some of the year. I really do hate the "oh you do it mate then" line...Its bulls1t.....if u are doing the job do it properley....if not and u cant handle it get out.....but dont preach to me about doing "your" bit.....we all do....This is not what teh initial thread was about
Oh dear, the I'm to busy/ important line, this old chestnut again.
Stand by and complain that others wont give up their time in sufficient numbers to ensure your son has a ref
The Football Body has nothing to do with Referee Appointments. Yet.
Oh, and Dola is trying to be practical and find ways to work things out. For you to claim either him, or other referees get emotional to criticisms on here is laughable. Reread your first post !
Sadly, at all levels in all sports of which I'm aware, the inconsistency in punishments, procedural errors in due process by well meaning volunteers has virtually ensured that little or no deterrent is currently in place. Sadly, even physical abusers of referees have escaped or had little punishment imposed upon them.
Any opinions expressed here are mine alone and not necessarily indicative of any formal Referee's body unless otherwise stated.
The training and development material are mandatory and are sourced from the FFA.
Granville Referees Association have, for many many years, sourced tapes, cds, dvds from other places such as the FFA. We have had the highest level guest speakers, mentoring programmes for newbies, education only sessions, training and many other things to try to improve, retain and develop members.
Still, we lose members. Again, it is due to lifestyle, family, work, other interests, and abuse.
No sport has the answer, the same problems are rampant in Netball, League and almost any other sport you can name.
If anyone has a new suggestion, I for one would love to learn of it.
Any opinions expressed here are mine alone and not necessarily indicative of any formal Referee's body unless otherwise stated.
I reckon we should just copy and paste the same argument from last year. Save time both sides typing the same thing again. Maybe we could get Clive Palmer or Tinkler to kick in some money and pay the refs more, then we'd get some.
Taking a look through the Bathurst Street 1 & 2 draws, clearly, the 11.40am timeslot is the troubled area. There really is hardly any senior referees available at that time.
Add to that there is PL or SL following on either of the alternate weeks at Bathurst St which requires not only a senior, but the more experienced seniors as well. Most of the more experienced seniors are set to do 2 matches only, as the way those matches play out, it would be near impossible to do 3 of them and still expect the referee to be fit to come back the next week at all.
So, for Bathurst St 1 & 2, it seems that the decisions need to be made, the economics that I talk about. Now, since it is a near certainty that the PL and SL are going to get referee coverage, the decision should be made by the club I suppose, do we value 17/1's higher, or, do we value the other senior teams.
Once the answer to that is agreed upon, then that is the team that should be slotted in at 1pm and 3pm on the alternate field.
At the moment, it seems that 17/1's is being valued less.
An alternative might be to look at shuffling the draw so that half of the 17/1's home matches are at 1pm and half at 11.40am to be fair between the senior team and the 17/1's team.
That is the economics of it I believe in trying to achieve the best chance of a referee for these 17/1's.
As the cards have fallen, the alternate team in this timeslot on the other week has achieved a better outcome it seems for a referee appointment. The alternate in the same timeslot is U16/1. So, here is the problem, and, I am sure a massive problem to try and fix under the current individual division structures. The better thing would be for these 2 teams to be on the same side of the draw, so they both played before and after each other. A massive problem to try and correct the draw so both these two fall on the same side I imagine.
This then comes back to explain why we need clubs to have one division set to play through the whole day if we really want to achieve referee coverage on the high grades.
Take a look at the current pair with 17/1's, and it is difficult to think how to cover it. The pair is U13's. It just does not go well together.
The only other suggestion that might work is if the 13's and the 17's were actually brought back to the 8.30 and 9.30am timeslots. It might be possible to find a referee for 9.30am that could fit this a little better than 11.40am.
Shagger, I doubt there is much of a way out of it for your division for this entire season unfortunately.
No place to say exactly which teams you talk about. What I can say is that the referees association issued a note to its members quoting 3 teams that have had the referees association zero tolerance policy applied just last Thursday. There was a 35/1 team in this.
So, I suppose we wait to hear the outcome of this matter.
Hopefully the football association decides to start suspending the matches of these teams as well until the matters are dealt with. Now that would be effective communication I think.
Post by chuwolfman on May 14, 2012 12:52:35 GMT 10
There are a few simple reasons why there are no referees, the two obvious ones are lack of volunteers and abuse. The other less obvious one is that the training is below average at best.
I used to referee, I think for about 5 years after which I got tired of the abuse and decided to spend my time helping my club on the committee and coaching/managing my team. Turns out I'm a sh!t coach so I don't do that anymore
While not everyone has the time to referee most people could if they wanted to, they simply choose not to. If you haven't put time in, if you haven't encouraged your children to put the time in and/or if you have ever abused a referee then don't complain about a lack of referee's. While the above mentioned scheduling issues are the reasons some particular teams get refs over others are all true, the key reason "you" aren't getting ref's is that there aren't enough of them.
It should be easy to encourage your children to consider refereeing and/or do it with them. It will help their fitness and is great character building. My father and I both started at the same time, I would generally do 3 or 4 games and play my own game in the middle of the day. After my game both of us would either line a high div seniors or PL match or Dad would do the centre on a lower division game while I ran the line. Most people could do this if they actually could be bothered, they just choose not to.
The abuse you cop as a referee is just plain stupid, I can't believe how some people think it is ok to abuse a 16 year old kid because they think he made a mistake (sometimes he did, most the time they were wrong). I've had an O35 player from my own club swear at me at half time because he though a goal was offside (it wasn't, and he was promptly marched to the ref and sent off). He was literally more than twice my age and he thought that was Ok? I myself have a pretty thick skin, the abuse I copped didn't get to me and I was mostly happy to quietly laugh at how pathetic so many parents of young kids are, or how pathetic older guys playing some low division club football are.
On field abuse from players is easy to deal with, you simply card them. When you cop if from parents though the solution is much more difficult. Parents really need to pull their heads out of their a$$es and realise they should be a role model for their children rather than furthering a unacceptable trend. No wonder kids get older and abuse referee's... and no wonder kids don't want to become referee's...
Now I am not going to blast the referee's association for their training methods as they are all themselves volunteers who are doing their best, and as mentioned above following a curriculum of sorts provided by the FFA.. I would like to say that I don't think the training is sufficient. The test that you must pass to become a referee is also not sufficient. Now obviously we don't want a super difficult test that most will fail as we will have even less referee's, but I think something better is needed.
The instruction we receive on how the laws work and how to administer them is pretty solid, if you actually pay attention you should come out with a solid understanding of the laws. You also receive training on how to position yourself on the field, how to call and use body language etc to administer the laws and this is fairly solid too. The problem with these points is there is no test to confirm an understanding of these points. While handling abuse is broached there is not enough training and support on this front in my opinion, yes the senior refs assure they are available to be contacted for assistance or support but most ref's seem to simply quit rather than seek support. We need to better train new referee's on how to handle abuse from players, coaches/managers and supporters; both in terms of how to respond as well as how to cope with it as a person. As others have alluded to, harsh penalties to players and teams will in the short term be unfortunate for all involved, but in the long term it will surely be worth it.
I think a key element of the training that is missing is a practical training/exam. A new ref fresh out of the course will go out and referee his/her first game with no support or feedback on what they are doing unless another senior ref happens to be there. I think the course should be extended by an extra night/day and ref's should go out in groups with a senior ref to perhaps trial games where possible, if that can't be arranged then even just to some nearby team's training sessions where the team can have a mock game (even just a half field game) where the ref's will have a chance to get out on a field and apply what they have learned in a low pressure environment with a Senior ref providing instant feedback, support and compliments on a job well done. This would do wonders to a new referee's confidence and make that massive first game much less intimidating. If all that can't be arranged then have the new ref's play a game with each other while taking it in turns to ref, most ref's are current or ex players so that shouldn't be an issue to organise.
Another additional point about support for ref's is how difficult it is to upgrade your refereeing qualifications. I had a fair bit of experience and had received good feeback from Senior referee's. I had been assigned many division 1 Junior games including finals and assisted many high division Seniors games including PL so I was looking into doing the test to become a level 2 ref (or however the ranking system worked, I don't recall now). The test to do this involved a fitness test on a week night which I was fine to find time to do as well as a (I think) 17's or 18 division 1 match where I would be assessed by a Senior Ref. The problem with this is I was playing 17/1's at the time myself which meant to do this assessment game I would need to miss my own match, for me my playing was the main priority at that time, I had made a commitment to my team and wasn't willing to abandon them for a week so I could do this test (especially as I am a goal keeper). As most ref's are current players I would imagine this problem might inhibit others from progressing as referee's as well, the path is not made easy. If I had been able to do this I would've continued refereeing and probably continued to progress my qualifications, making this path easier will give the association more higher level ref's to help fill the older division 1 junior games and the higher division senior games.
We need to look prioritise improving these problems ASAP, improving training, increasing on going support and harsher penalties for teams will all help. I think increasing the fee's and promoting this will also help, especially for young kids looking for their first job (maybe there are limitations here though, as I am aware the fee's received are a reimbursement of expenses not income, hence no need for tax).
I think we should also look more closely at how other associations do it, I have spoken to many players and referee's from the Gladesville Hornsby association and they all say the same things: "We almost never don't have a ref", "The abuse (of all kinds) in the Granville comp is much worse", "The referee's are better quality" and other comments along similar lines. Now I haven't played or ref'd in this comp myself so this is second hand information, but I have probably spoken to 30 players and ref's of varying ages, divisions and personalities and they all say the same thing.
Wow, that turned into a bit of a rant.
Last Edit: May 14, 2012 12:58:36 GMT 10 by chuwolfman
As a relatively new referee I simply cannot understand why grown men and rarely women, cannot and seemingly will not take responsibility for their own actions. Abusing referee's, abusing opposition players, etc. etc
I have found the following:
1. some matches are an absolute pleasure to referee and watch. Sure they question decisions but they accept it and get on with playing the football game, rather than playing the blame game;
2. teams question the decisions and if they dont like it whinge and carp then start to take matters in their own hands. Normally only 1 or 2 of these in a team, but they spoil it for the rest of their team mates and also opposition;
or and this is rare:
3. a team that thinks every decision should go their way and if it doesnt they hold a grudge against the referee and the opposition. They yell at the referee in appealing for decisions, they swear under their breath and whinge "what about this and what about that". I will NEVER change my mind based on representation from a player - I dont think there is a ref out there that will.
I enjoy refereeing, in fact the first game on Saturday I had was the most pleasure I have had doing a game. It was one sided but both teams played the way the game should be - tough but fair and acceptance of a decision and to get on with playing the football game.
I actually cant wait to get out there and ref those teams again, or in fact any other team in that division (2nd game that has gone well from that div). I know I can go out on the pitch knowing I will be respected, that I will have a positive effect on the game and I will have the best seat in the house for a sporting contest. Sure its not Premier League but its what football, and all sport should be about. Competitive, Athletic and Respect.
Hey guys I saw a game on the weekend with an unnofficial ref, he awarded a penalty, opposition got so angry that there coach came on the field and was arguing with the poor guy for about 5 minutes, the players were still going on while the coach was discussing it with the unnofficial ref, if it was me I would walk straight off and let them officiate it themselves, something needs to be done to get the players to respect the person in the middle whoever it maybe, yes they are paid to do it (IF THEY ARE OFFICIALS), yes they do make mistakes, but hey if they do make a mistake, respect it and walk away, as snorkel says they are not going to change their decision, accept it and walk away, my oppinion as I have said before is to have a sin bin system, especially if you are the ref and can see that something may heat up , before it gets to that stage send a player to the sin bin to cool down between 2 - 5 minutes depending on what the decision of doing this is for.I have been playing just over 10 years NEVER received a card and possibly NEVER will, I do not take any game as a death defying world cup and yes be competive but also to have fun with your team mates and also keep fit, having an official is great and we do want to have them week in and week out with no shortages, respect and also thank these people after the games, I am sure that they could entertain themselves in other ways instead of being out in the park on a Saturday or Sunday officiating games, yes they do get paid,what price do we put to sit and abuse or even get violent towards these people that are making the effort to officiate our games.
what you say runs along the very same lines as merv.
This is the obvious point that will be used to think about for future from what I have read on here so far. This is very valuable information to try and fix an issue from the referees association side of things.
The use of trial matches and matches where there are lots of referees to watch will be thought about better implementing into the process.
As oko said, we use the mentors and they are back out there a bit more busier than usual this year than what they have been for the past couple of years.
We had quite an informative general meeting session last week with over 100 referees attending. We went through how to write up reports should that be needed, and, how to manage dissent.
We also had a gdsfa board director talking about various issues.
The management of dissent could not have been spoken about many more times...deal with it...deal with it early and take control of the match. Hopefully some of that education assisted the referees over the past weekend.
With over 100 referees there, a good number of us at least should be a little more consistent. From looking at the referees annual report last year, only 2 other meetings in the last 10 years have had so many of us gather together at the same time.
The idea of the practical introduction for early games will be taken on board.
Post by fourfourtwo on May 15, 2012 8:43:46 GMT 10
Chuwolfman, Well presented and valid view. Which ever way you look at it, it is disappointing that a Referee's Association cannot recruit and cover the scheduled weekend games but violence has previously plagued this particular Association.
We ALL have to take responsibility for this. Refs Association have a finite number of refs, to cover "x" amount of matches. Sheer mathematics means a proportion of matches don't get covered.
Everyone involved in this Association needs to work towards making the situation better. Players, coaches, clubs, Refs Assoc, GDSFA, spectators.......everyone.
We should have a goal that all matches are refereed by an appointed GDSRA official. And everything we do should be geared towards that. No finger pointing, no excuses, just action and determination to improve.
from what I understand from talking to other guys at work that play or coach in other associations we do pretty well numbers wise in Granville. My biggest gripe as the parent of a ref is the fact that many people who wear the team official vest seem to think they are the official team abuser of the ref rather tha being there to control their spectators, teams and clubs need to re-educate their spectator's as to the correct role of the team official.
with 500 odd teams and at least 200 games a week at this point in time we are never going to get every game covered, and as I have sai before it is not always possible to have a ref that is qualied/capable of doing a game available
dola20, one assisting move would be to move the commencement date of the Referees training so that practical training matches trial game commencement. Another very important part of officiating a game that, in my mind should happen, is prior to the commencement of a game the Ref should speak to both captains separate to the teams and lay the law down so the captains, who really should be the only people that the Refs talks to, unless he is about to card someone, take charge of their squads. The Captains should also be clearly visible, armbands etc. Just my thoughts
Have been reading this thread with interest. A lot is expected from our senior referees in helping and developing the younger ones but sometimes we forget that they have many other things to fit into their time as well. Family and work commitments being the highest. Some of them play the game, some coach or have children who play or referee and a combination of the above. A higher responsibility falls on the shoulders of Ref Asn management but like above they have limited time as well and there isn't a lot of reward in it for the amount of time they put into providing referees for as many games as possible (apart from the self satisfaction of serving the game and the footballing community). Many things have been done and yes there is work to do to make improvements but the is are limited resources (mostly volunteer time).
Another issue is participation rate in the training and other activities organised. Some referees just want to get the occasional game and referee and are not interested in meetings and trainings. Unfortunately with the low numbers that we have we can't be choosy.
Most if not all teams, when they get a ref, expect a international level refereeing standard (even the 35/6s ). Like or not we are, at grassroots level, at the bottom of the food chain. We get referees who do their best but still make mistakes.